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Post by amazingates on Oct 25, 2019 1:37:27 GMT -8
Is There a Group Of Serial Killers Who Are Connected?
I have always thought that a lot of these murders and these serial killers might be connected in some way; whether actually being tied together closely and committing the same murders or maybe just loosely connected where they are separately killing people but they are in contact and communicating their crimes with one another.
I know this is not a very popular thought, but has anyone else considered this to be happening?
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 27, 2019 1:39:57 GMT -8
I have seen that asked before i dont know but it could be And especially in Cali in the bay area in the 70s there were just so many killers
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Post by amazingates on Oct 28, 2019 16:10:59 GMT -8
I have seen that asked before i dont know but it could be And especially in Cali in the bay area in the 70s there were just so many killers _________ I have always thought The Zodiac is a group. I think a lot of the communications (even though not in the same handwriting) are from The Zodiac. If so, then we have to have a few people writing communications. There were also many different radical factions at the time, and these radical groups would definitely have several people knowing what was going on and participating in "something" with the group they were involved with. Cali was in a total uproar in the 60's and carrying on over into the 70's and lingered on even after that. and Cali was not the only state where a lot of these groups or offshoots were involved in radical and violent acts. Weatherman Underground (what I have always called them) definitely was a documented group who use a lot of violence in many different states Black Panthers also a lot of violence in many different states, working as a group. Manson Family another Group who would work together. Certain cliques or families who were doling out revenge to those who crossed one of them MC groups Mexican Mafia Mobsters Weird "religious" groups SLA KKK Cointelpro - a group that created out and out war on all the radical groups they wanted rid of; even assassinating them. So who all did they have helping to assassinate people? Are we looking at OPERATION ZODIAC? and did someone or a few of them go rogue? I'm wondering. Then we have the FBI listing the case as an EXTORTION case. WHY? I see all through the z communications and what appears to me to be communications back to z in the news, to be talking about Money. You won't see that said on the surface, but I see it in the Z language
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Post by ophion1031 on Oct 28, 2019 21:02:40 GMT -8
I think that at the very least, Zodiac was two people - a killer and then a partner that wrote the letters. I mention that personal ad a lot and to me that points to Fred Manalli being the "partner." And if this is true then that means that at least two other people were involved - the "Imperial Wizard" and "R.A." I suppose R.A. and the Imperial Wizard could be the same person, but that still makes a minimum of three people. If we explore the group theory, there are so many different directions we ca go in. A lot of them you just mentioned in the post above. I have a thread on my old website that was about this exact subject and it as a lot of useful information on most of these groups you mentioned as well as some others. I'm still working on transferring posts from that site to this one... Personally I like the Minutemen angle because they did use the crosshair logo as well, and they did so before Zodiac. There are other reasons, but I don't think it would have been the Minutemen as a group, rather just one or two of them probably doing something outside of Minutemen activities that none of the other members knew about. Troy Houghton has been named as a POI but he disappeared a couple years before the Zodiac murders started. He could have gone underground, but there is no way to know that. If he was Zodiac, there's a chance that Dennis Mower could have also been involved. One thing that really caught my attention was that Jack Ruby received a couple of letters postmarked from L.A. while he was in prison after killing Lee Harvey Oswald. I believe these letters were written by the same person that wrote the Cheri Jo Bates letters, and I think this could have been someone from the Minutemen behind it. I'll hunt down those letters and post them here in a bit. Every group you mentioned should be looked at for the Zodiac murders as well as the Church of Satan and all of the other weird cults that were active at the time. But also, some of the rich people clubs like the Bohemian Club. Some of them had clubs within clubs, which were more exclusive I guess. In my research I have found that a good amount of the people who lived in the neighborhood where Paul Stine was killed were rich and prominent type people and quite a few belonged to the Bohemian Club and other such groups. Of course it could just be that he/they (Zodiac) hated rich people and chose to kill someone in that neighborhood for that very reason, but it could also be a group of prominent and powerful people that were behind it. And that could be why no arrest was ever made, because he/they had some sort of protection. Here is one cult that I did a little research on and found interesting..... The International Order of St. Hubertus' first U.S. chapter launched in 1966 at the famous Bohemian Club in San Francisco. They are an exclusive fraternity (They prefer fraternity rather than cult. Fuck that, they are a cult!) for hunters, an Austrian society that dates back to the 1600's. They made headlines a few years ago because of the mysterious death of a member, Judge Antonin Scalia. There are conspiracy theories flying around, and even Donald Trump spoke about it shortly after it happened. Members of the worldwide, male-only society wear dark-green robes emblazoned with a large cross and the motto “Deum Diligite Animalia Diligentes,” which means “Honoring God by honoring His creatures,” according to the group’s website. Some hold titles, such as Grand Master, Prior and Knight Grand Officer. The Order’s name is in honor of Hubert, the patron saint of hunters and fishermen. I wonder if they have an Imperial Wizard. It's funny that they honor god's creatures by killing them. Douchebags. They've been called the “Illuminati of the Hunting World.” Fuck the Illuminati, too! These are the cult's logos: The Zodiac ciphers also had a Freemason sort of vibe to them so that is something else worth checking into. I mean, it has been looked at somewhat but probably not enough. One family I have researched is the Livermore family. I came across the name George Livermore in an FBI document pertaining to Bill Thoresen... Instead of getting into all of that, I'll post a seperate thread on the Livermores soon. I will also post a thread on Oliver and Isabel Stine and of course we will have a Kjell Qvale thread in the near future. Also, most of the Hearst family were in the Bohemian Club. The movie Citizen Kane is loosely based on the life of Randolph Hearst. His granddaughter, Patty Hearst, was abducted by the SLA, as most people probably know about. Randolph the San Francisco Examiner. Maybe there are some dots to connect somewhere in there.
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Post by amazingates on Oct 29, 2019 20:33:46 GMT -8
yes, there are so many groups that could have a few people in them doing something. So many of them had reason to be doing crazy stuff, not that I think they should go out and kill people, but within themselves they had reasons for trying to upset the whole controlling establishment or to get revenge for something someone did or did not do that was promised.
I still keep going back to the Zodiac case being labeled by the FBI as an EXTORTION case. Also, when I decode a lot of these communications(and I'll get that out here at some point, it is so complex) I keep seeing talk of large amounts of money. it keeps popping up all the time. It's almost like some renegade group is out there demanding money from someone or they are going to keep killing people. I really wonder if they were not used by the powers that be to assassinate and do some other covert things and they got pissed off and went rogue and decided to EXTORT money and when they did not get it, they just started killing people. I know that sounds insane but after reading the whole LEARY article you posted, it sounds even more possible. Gee, I know I sound bonkers about now to most people haha but you know, I know that ATTITUDE and when people are screwed over, they can and will get that way. And what is anyone going to really do about it... depending on what they know and willing to talk about, they might just be getting paid off, while at the same time, whoever was in control is trying to get them back in control, or at least figure out where they are so they can "terminate" them.
If we go back to comparing the Ruby letter with the Bates letter and think about 4 1/2 years in between them and what was going on during those years in political unrest and all these different radical factions, and all the ties they had with people in high places; and if we realize just what the powers that be were capable of and actually doing; and we remember how radical and violent these groups who were getting screwed over would actually become, and how well they could hide... then I don't think anything I'm saying is really that outlandish.
There are a lot of things I THINK, and then there are a lot of things I KNOW... but I'm very hesitant to be out here post on a public board what I might KNOW and think I probably should not say... so basically, I look around and read and if it is "out there" posted or written about then I might talk about it... but if it is something I have never seen out here, then hmmm... I'll talk some, but I'm not going to get out here and just put everyone on total blast haha.
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Post by ophion1031 on Oct 29, 2019 21:17:03 GMT -8
I don't think that sounds crazy at all. My line of thinking is tat anything is possible, and every avenue should be explored. And again, if this was a rogue group of some sort, they still may have been provided with protection from at least one of the agencies. I have never seen the Zodiac case labelled as an extortion case, but that is interesting. The radical groups were causing trouble all over the place and getting away with quite a bit, and if they are getting away with major crimes then just imagine what the powers that be are up to and getting away with. I think after the JFK assassination, these people realized that they can do whatever the hell they want. They can cover it up, and if they are sloppy about it like in the JFK assassination, it doesn't really matter because there's nothing anyone can do to these people anyways.
Groups like the Minutemen and the Birchers absolutely had friends in high places. For the rich people, it was a benefit for them because they had these groups doing their dirty work. And for the radical groups it was beneficial because they were receiving financial support for their causes. The right-wing groups were racist as hell and in those days racism wasn't frowned upon all that much, although some of the "elite" hid the fact that they were racist and wanted to keep their relationships to the right-wingers a secret. Some of them just didn't care and would be seen mingling with the militant groups. Some of them were very open about being members of the Klan, the Minutemen and the JBS. I love reading books and watching documentaries on this subject.
Since you were around and seeing some of this shit for yourself, you should get in contact with a guy named Keith Gilbert, a former member of the Minutemen. Over the last 7-8 years he has taken to the net to post a lot of cool stories and honestly he has provided me with a ton of great info that has helped me in several areas of my research into the Zodiac case, the Minutemen, some of the 60's assassinations etc. I'll reach out to him and see if he would be willing to join here and start posting. He posted a little bit at my old site, but mostly we spoke through email and facebook. I haven't heard from him in quite a while though.
I would not be surprised if your paths crossed in the 60's.
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 29, 2019 23:30:12 GMT -8
I have talked to some friends about this and we all agreed that it could well be a group of serial killers that operate independently but also sometimes work together and planning and wt they do as far as communicating through letters to press and police. It's certainly not out of the question and if you really think about it there are some similarities and things that tie together. Possibly a cult of some kind and they might all be Satanists.
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 29, 2019 23:40:54 GMT -8
When Zodiac mentioned "the game" a couple of times in letters it makes me think about a game between serial killers. Probably 4 or 5 killers competing to see who is the best but also working together to not get caught. That would make for a really good movie. Ophion get on that ASAP lol.
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Post by amazingates on Oct 29, 2019 23:50:02 GMT -8
When Zodiac mentioned "the game" a couple of times in letters it makes me think about a game between serial killers. Probably 4 or 5 killers competing to see who is the best but also working together to not get caught. That would make for a really good movie. Ophion get on that ASAP lol. _______________ you know I thought of that also ... maybe a game to see who could kill the most or do the most or take the most chances and get away with it... maybe wearing the zodiac hood was a dare? lol maybe he got extra points for that one. sorry, but I can just imagine if I were playing that game, I would make rules like that haha. I have a crazy since of humor. but that might explain why he was dressed up like an idiot.
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Post by amazingates on Oct 29, 2019 23:54:47 GMT -8
here is something else I have thought about.... why are they communicating through the newspaper. Why are they not sending the letters directly to the police. Maybe it is because the messages are not TO THE POLICE. maybe they are to one another in the group. They don't want to get caught sending to another person(or if they are loosley connected they might not even know who the person is or where to send it) so they send it to the media, it gets posted and the other person reads it. The other person could not read it if they are sending it directly to the police.
I have always wondered if these messages are not to one another or someone other than the police.
the other thing I see going on is the police are coding back in the news articles. I'll have to try to take the time to show you what I mean, but I'll have to figure out how to explain it properly for anyone to understand it.
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 0:14:21 GMT -8
I bet you get a few killers together and with their personalities there would have to be a bunch of rules and a complex scoring system in place. Not to get off topic but I typed 'Zodiac Killer game' in to google search and this came up
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 0:15:59 GMT -8
And just think about the Zodiac letters having a score right at the bottom of some of the letters lol
Zodiac = 37 SFPD = 0
Could that have something to do with a serial killer game scorecard?
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 1:02:03 GMT -8
And just think about the Zodiac letters having a score right at the bottom of some of the letters lol Zodiac = 37 SFPD = 0 Could that have something to do with a serial killer game scorecard? ___________________ I had that cross my mind before. I wonder if Rader ever puts those numbers on his. I'm trying to remember. I know he has a ton of numbered stuff all over every correspondence but I had not paid attention and just thought they were dates and how many times he wrote to me whom.. I'll have to check
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 1:04:46 GMT -8
I have read some of the posts you have talked about Rader making secret messages and it makes me wonder if he is trying to assist people in solving the Zodiac crimes. Assuming he was Zodiac that is.
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 1:05:25 GMT -8
I just now realized something... zodiac says set to magnetic north and north is 0....
magnetic is another word for ARRESTING< sfpd would be an "arresting" agency and sfpd always = 0 on all the correspondence... what if magnetic 0 is actually setting to sfpd which = 0
so if sfpd = 0 setting, then maybe there is a murder at all the numbers that zodiac =
this is off topic but just now realized it when reading the post above this one... I'll copy this and put is somewhere more appropriate.... so we don't clutter up this thread
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 1:06:18 GMT -8
Ophion here is that Orange Theory video you asked m about yesterday. I do remember watching this a few years ago. Amazingates you might find this interesting as well.
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 1:17:20 GMT -8
that video on orange theory is pretty interesting. I'll have to go through it again tomorrow and stop and go through it all to get to really read it all.
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 1:18:03 GMT -8
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 1:25:46 GMT -8
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 2:00:15 GMT -8
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 2:15:35 GMT -8
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Post by touchmysheenis on Oct 30, 2019 2:53:17 GMT -8
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 9:17:54 GMT -8
the ORANGE solution to the ciphers is an interesting method. I did not get there the same way but I have found the Alpha and Omega reference and a lot of spiritual and religious overtone throughout. I also find locations. And I keep finding things that are mentioning demands for money. I have a whole different way of doing these based on the letter communications themselves. I'll explain this as soon as I figure out HOW to explain it. It is not something i can just write out a paragraph or so and explain it. a person is going to have to basically learn the Rules of the code and then use them and go through the communications and work them out. If a person is experienced at working cryptic crosswords then it should not be that hard, but if you are not experienced at it and are not experience with the rules, then it can be quite time consuming. I'm going to study this video a lot more and see what he is actually doing. And then try to go through the process myself and see how each step is working out and if I can come up with this as well. I don't like the "pick and choose" solutions that most people use. I like to have a CHECK that lets you know if it is right or not when you do find something. Kind of like when you do a math problem and have to show your work with a CHECK to show you have the right answer.. example... 135-84=51 . because 84+51=135.... remember in grade school we use to have to do that? or maybe you didn't have to depending on your age, but when I went to school, you always had to show how you got your answer by reversing it and working it backwards. if it did not add up right, you knew your answer was wrong. If you came up with anything that was not the same for the other side of the equation, then you had to redo the problem and fix it.... That is the very same for the RULES in cryptic crosswords(one side of the equation in the word communications HAS TO EQUAL the other side of the equation, if not, you have it wrong; only with Zodiac he is not using a crossword layout, but he is getting the words in the same manner and those words are all through his communications letters. So all his scrambled up nonsensical rambling in those communications are actually meaning something other than what he is saying. They are instructions on what to do with the graphs, amongst other information. He basically is using Word Magic. I'll explain it all and try to show you what I am doing, but it is hard to show and explain unless you learn the RULES and learn what you are suppose to do. That can take a long time learning all the RULES as there are many, but you don't just "make up" the rules, they are in place to begin with. They are a standard set of rules almost exactly like the ones I found by following the Eureka Card... to the nations magazine. after looking at the video ORANGE solution, I'm wondering The Zodiac was not getting frustrated because some of the communications were getting lost, not published like they were suppose to be, so people were not getting the KEYS he was sending and so the "other side" (whoever that was) was not able to work out what he was saying. So maybe he decided to send other ways to work out these communications, hoping that they would be available to whoever was supposed to be getting them. (the people who were definitely coding back through the newspaper; I see it all the time in the news articles) I don't think this was ONLY a GAME but that there is another side communicating back but someone other than who they were meant for was intercepting this some and it was not getting to where it was suppose to go. I think this is why it is constantly being said to print this in the news or I'll go on a killing spree. This stuff was not meant for just anyone, it was to go out to specific people and it was not happening. So I think the keys were changed with several ways to get the message through. Not just everyone was suppose to figure this stuff out, and when the feds realized people were figuring it out, they kept it hidden. Therefore we do not have all we need, in fact, we have very little of it. I believe there are a few of the people in law enforcement who were coding back and they were not telling ANYONE... why? because I think there is a group and that group somehow originated with the knowledge of the higher ups, and at some point this group went rogue on the higher ups... therefore... EXTORTION. I'm sure they had a very good idea who was doing this. I'm sure they knew which GROUP was doing it, but not exactly which PERSON in the group or how many of the group.. they wanted to hunt this person or persons down and "terminate" them. I'm sure some of them are still out here. I believe it very possible at least one of them is sitting in prison right now, still sending out the messages. It certainly will be interesting if it's possible to come up with the same "message" in more than one way. Our problem is there is so much of the communications missing. We have very little I think. I can see where there is something being conveyed and talked about and then whatever is being talked about just is not there. One of the things in the ORANGE video that caught my attention is THE WHEEL... that really interests me, because I know about THE WHEEL through two different sources and one of them was from Dennis Rader. Another reason I think Dennis Rader might be "part of the GROUP"... or Dennis Rader figured out what The Zodiac was doing and then inserted himself into the game. by the way... Dennis Rader "IS" "The Wheel" ... more on that later. And the other thing is. Robert Ressler in MICHIGAN had people working on "the wheel" way back before we ever heard about THE ZODIAC or Dennis Rader. Gee.. I hate putting that out here because I do not need the Feds on my butt but I'll just take that chance and say it anyway. But if this starts getting hectic and I start getting a knock on my door, I'll know not to say more LOL
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 10:00:12 GMT -8
Another thing I want to say is this... and again, I'm getting myself in trouble here. ugh... anyway... If you watch these message boards carefully, you can see the "coders". They are out here. I see them all the time. They have been out on these boards for years. I first noticed them on Tom's first Z boards. And some of these people are VERY good. I've engaged with them at times and they usually get really mad at me. They will talk to me for a bit and then realize I am NOT ONE OF THEM haha. and then they get mad at me. Understandable. and in the process no one else realizes what is going on and will make me stop posting haha. It has been totally frustrating to say the least. So if anyone has ever read some of my "crazy" posts over the years, that is what was going on LOL . I really think Dennis Rader picked up on that and that is why he followed me over to my private chat. He was curious as to who I was and why I was over coding in Tom's chat back then in 2005. I also think that is why when he wrote to me he decided to start sending me coded messages and he kept talking about "the family". I think he also said he would kill me if I did not get the solutions right because he wanted to see if I really knew the code, and basically I did. but as it got more and more hard I was really struggling working out the solutions. So at that point for whatever reason, they started teaching me more. Basically, these people are safe with me. I'm not going to up and up rat them out. I'll wait until they die...I can't cause harm to Rader because they already know who he is and what he is doing and that is why they confiscated all his communications and mine, and why they took away all of his writing privileges, would not allow him paper and pencils etc. nothing. they flat stopped any communication from him to the outside world... then when kris carsarona kept going to see him and get info from his and supposedly was going to publish HIS book the way he wanted it, that ended up not happening and instead everything she had went over to John Douglas and he published the book the way HE wanted to, leaving us in the dark about what was really going on, and pretending the puzzle was solved when in fact there is another layer that no one has ever mentioned. ... gee I know I am going to regret saying all of this. But oh well, like I stated before, I'm a 60's wild child and I was not a "peace and love hippie", I was a radical, so I made a decision to "fight the cause" ages ago before I was even a teenager, so I guess this it just another part of THAT cause. The truth needs to get out here because all we are hearing is a one-side version and believe me, the group might have gotten out of hand, but they were not the origin of this mess by far. Operation Zodiac was not the brainchild of these killers... we have our government to thank for this mess
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Post by amazingates on Oct 30, 2019 12:12:50 GMT -8
I have read some of the posts you have talked about Rader making secret messages and it makes me wonder if he is trying to assist people in solving the Zodiac crimes. Assuming he was Zodiac that is. _________________ Rader is definitely into the GAME part of this and he really does want to talk, but he is very cautious how he does it. AND... I don't think they want RADER talking at all. I really think he knows things he should not know... I also think they made a deal with him to not charge him with anymore crimes that might carry the death penalty. All of the murders they charged him with are retro under the no death penalty for Kansas...If they were to find and charge him with a murder after that period when they changed to NO death penalty, and it a murder fell under the time person when they again changed to YES death penalty, they he would get the death penalty... and that would also include any murders he might have committed in other states that had the death penalty if and when he committed any murders other than the ones he is charged with now.... Do I think Rader committed more murders than what he is charged with... of course I do ... do I think they know it, of course I do LOL... the court itself stated Dennis Rader could not have any paper and pencils to draw with so he could not be fantasizing about murders... oh come on... the REAL reason is so he could not write to anyone. they they decided that if anyone sent him money to buy and paper, stamps and envelops that ALL of his money went to the victims... and they would not allow you to send any paper into the prison so they had it covered... Dennis Rader was not going to be allowed to write to anyone. He then had ONLY 5 letters a month he was able to write by using the indigent fund which gives you 5 letters a month. another reason why I quit writing, he was using one of those letters to write to me and I felt bad because I thought there were other people he should be using that letter to write to. and of course I really quit because the feds confiscated all our writing. who knows where those letters went. probably in some dang lab being decoded haha... I noticed a few years back some of his letters and cards started popping up on the net again, so I assume he finally got permission to write out again. I did not start writing again. I don't want him writing crap and getting stuff confiscated again and I don't want the feds looking at me haha. but another person I knew who was writing to him and getting the weird coded letters, wrote something they should not have and dennis wrote back and dennis got his writing privileges suspended over that crap. It was coded carp too. but yes, I definitely think Dennis Rader has a universe of info he wants the world to know, but I don't think they are ever going to let him tell it. They might not know WHAT he is communicating but guarantee you, they know he is communicationg "SOMETHING", and they don't want THAT to happen. I totally get that he wants people to know, but he wants them to know in a way that if anyone ever figures it out(who he does not want THEM to figure it out) that he can say, oh that is not what that meant, those people are nuts. I never said that... I think he knows exactly who will understand what he is saying and knows other people won't. and if the ones who he does not want to understand, ever do, he just says... where did I ever say that... that is not what that means, you people are nuts.... I do the same thing haha so I "get it"
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