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Post by amazingates on Nov 28, 2019 20:40:30 GMT -8
Who Might The Others Invovled Be In Son Of Sam Case?
I've never really looked at the Son of Sam case that much. I kinda glanced at it a couple of times over the years, but never really really read about it and paid attention, until just now. Now I'm interested. Some think there really were others involved. If so, who are they? Is anyone still really looking at this case? I'll have to dig up more information to read on it.
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Post by ophion1031 on Dec 8, 2019 22:46:22 GMT -8
I have watched a couple of documentaries and maybe one or two Berkowitz interviews, and read the Ultimate Evil, but that's pretty much it. I'm sure people other than Maury Terry have tried to piece together who he was hanging around with that may have been tied in with a group (other than the Carr bros that we already know about), but I haven't done any much on that just yet. I always mean to and then get sidetracked haha. Eventually I would like to get an "expert" on each serial killer to join the site.
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sandyb1
New Member
Long time researcher on Zodiac, stalked by man who claims to be Zodiac. Obsessed with each other.
Posts: 22
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Post by sandyb1 on Dec 9, 2019 14:39:55 GMT -8
I am not an expert by any means, even though some consider me one in the Zodiac case. I have studied the Z case for the most of my life , yet I feel there is so much more to the case than what has been told. My friend Dr Howard Davis, has a great site that shows the connection between Charles Manson the Process Church and the Zodiac. I have read the book "The Ultimate Evil" by Maury Terry about David Berkowitz, Charles Manson and a Satanic cult that was and still is coast to coast ( NY to Ca.) They believe in the teachings of Aleister Crowley. It is a known by many of Darlene's family members, that Darlene Ferrin was introduced to this cult by her first husband Jim Phillips. That wasn't so unusual for the late 60's, many of us were curious about the unknown and different cults. I dabbled with Tarot cards, palm reading, Ouija boards, seance's. At that time in my life I had no idea that these are not heathley practices and can be very dangerous. I do believe that this is where Darlene met her killer and that he was into a very dangerous Satanic cult, among other things criminal, like counterfeit money and drug dealing. As I was reading The Ultimate Evil and knowing there were other killers connected to Berlowitz, there was one that stood out to me. He fit the description of one of my Zodiac suspects. (In the book he is called Manson 2. ) Most of the SOS killings were very much like Zodiac's, they were couples in cars near water,on or near holidays. Including the date the SOS murders started which was on July 29th 1976. A year later the killer taunted the police in July asking about what would they have for July 29th 1977, then on July 31st he struck again. Zodiac may have started his writing on July 29th, sent them and they arrived on July 31st 1969. (Many things reminded me of Zodiac.) Some of the descriptions where , white man in his 30's, curly permed brown hair 5 ft 8 or 9, straight dark blond hair, brown wavy hair combed straight back. Some said 160 -170 pounds other were heavier. Some were shot others stabbed, like Zodiac. During the time that Zodiac went quiet, the SOS murders were taking place in NY. David was caught on 8/10/77, Zodiac wrote a letter about his "return" eight months after Berkowitz was caught. The trial started May 8th 1978 Zodiac was back in California by April 24th 1978. ( That letter was one that the so called experts first claimed not to be a true Zodiac letter, then later said it was. When Zodiac wrote that 78 letter he back stepped a bit after saying " I am back with you, then said he never left? Bottom line is that yes I do believe there is a good chance that Zodiac belonged to the same cult and could have been part of the SOS group if not the leader. Some of the letters were written in block letters and had the same words used by Zodiac, like "shall" and spelled women "wemon". One of the coats that was described the killer wore ,is a match to my suspects green 3/4 length jacket that he had on in 1990. The inside of that jacket was lined with red plaid. The SOS murders were shot with a 44, some of the bullets were to badly damaged that it may not have been always a 44? More than one of those killers in that group could have also used a 44. One of the Marin victims was shot with a 44 and she was 44 ys old at that time. Her name was Edda Kane and was put into the same crime basket as all of the other Trailside murders. Edda was shot on 3/29/1981. Carpenter was a rapist and only killed to not leave a witness. The ones who were not raped , I believe were the work of the Zodiac. Ellen Hanson and Steven Haertle were attacked by a man described as being 45 to 55, 5 ft 9 in tall 175 pounds , gray close cropped hair, hazel eyes, dark horned -rimmed glasses and stained yellow teeth. He spoke in a slow and deliberate manner, had very clean hands. He wore a yellow jacket that was a special order from Billings Montana.with the words Olympic drinking team Montana. ( Only one yellow jacket like that was ever made) I saw my RH suspect with that very same jacket! Anyone who knows about the Zodiac case, knows that Zodiac's voice was described that same way. I am not saying that Zodiac was the Trailside killer, but that David Carpenter was blamed for some of Zodiac's murders! That Zodiac has killed many more than we may ever know and some of the murders could have been as far away as New York?
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Post by amazingates on Dec 9, 2019 15:22:10 GMT -8
Sandy, I looked very little at this case quite a few years back, but not enough to really say I looked at it. I read the letters/notes mostly and that was it. I have gone back through it "some" now, and there are some things written that does remind me of zodiac. The whole "son of sam" things is interesting... just how many "sons" does "Sam" have. Not that it means that, but it kind of jumped out that way to me.
I also think we have a group of people, spread out all over the place. What exactly is their main primary goal, and how many of them are connected up into another kind of thought process/belief within the main group? We could have a group who has one main purpose and many in the group are also tied to something else they are doing. That can be pretty common among people in crime. Criminals who work together in one aspect can be more trusting of one another than they would with "normal" people, so if one is a whackjob he might not necessarily feels he has to hide that, and in turn, others might accept that person and get involved in what he/she is doing. I've seen that a lot really.
So how many of these people are scattered about all over, and how many of these BIG murder cases(especially, the sk cases) are tied to people who are connected? It would not surprise me at all to find out quite a few are. I actually believe BTK is tied somehow to the Zodiac case, so why not Son of Sam as well. And the other thing is, if you are a sk, wouldn't you kind of feel some kind of bond with other sk's... not that you would go hang out with them, etc, but maybe you are interested in what they are doing. You might get involved with them in some other capacity? Or where did all of this stuff originate? Were several people involved in something together in one place at some point and then as they went "back home" we now have this dispersed loosely(or maybe closely) connecter group of people, who are killing people, writing letters and acting a lot in the same manner. If the killers are stupid enough to write letters out into the public, what would they not be stupid enough to "contact" the other killers in some way. Maybe there is a code that they recognize when one writes letters, so they go out and do "like" killings and write about them to have "secret pals" if you wish. Someone they can code to, talk with secretly, and make 'friends'... yes, sounds crazy, but 'something' is going on here with a lot of these sk's. They don't end up doing a lot of the same crazy stuff like this without 'something' going on between them, even if, like I just said, they are loosely connected and found a way to "communicate"
On the other hand, if it is some kind of "satanic" (for a better word) cult, or again, some secret belief system these people came in contact with somewhere along the line, then each took those beliefs back home(all over), then what are we looking at here. Where is the origination.
Now one thing i did notice just within the last few months(when I started looking at the Minutemen connection to Zodiac(possibly, and I do believe there is one) I find Dennis mower, minuteman, living up in REdding CA... and Jim Phillips/crabtree's step- father is up just outside of Redding in, Pine Grove. He is in Darlene's/Jim's phonebook, listed as project city/central valley. that use to be the OLD names of that little town back then, but there was a few blocks connected to it called PINE GROVE, and that is actually where they lived. But no one usually called it that, they just called that whole are CV - Central Valley/ or Project City. Part of that area right there was also called Summit City. Now it is called Shasta Lake City or just shasta lake. so I'm trying to find out if Dennis Mower had any connection to Jim Phillips/crabtree. I have not started to look at that yet.
sometimes i wonder if a lot of these people met in the military or something. What would have brought them all together when they are living scattered all over the usa? Did some group have "recruiters" that traveled around "recruiting" people into their "cult".. or did a lot of them just come out to california, and especially, to San Fran because at that time it was the "thing to do" run out to SF and see what was going on? a lot of people did... so were some of these sk's all over, people who went out to cali for a bit and got introduced into weird stuff and then when they went back home they were given local connections they could then hook up with? or was this some kind of weird military thing?
and I know I have traced so many of these weird sk cases to a connection in michigan. I have yet to really figure out the original connection to Michigan, but so many have a connection there. And it is for certain in the 60's and 70's there were a lot of sk's, and way too many of them have the michigan connection.
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Post by amazingates on Dec 9, 2019 15:24:49 GMT -8
Sandy....
now about the coat you are talking about Sandy. so there is only one made? now that is really interesting, and a very good clue. If that is so(which I am sure you researched it), then why is your suspect up in Montana getting that ONE AND ONLY coat? or did he special order it through the mail? or did someone from there come to where he was and give it to him? or did he steal it? or did he kill someone who had it, and took it? either way, he has some kind of tie to Montana or tie to someone from Montana. That is interesting. We should not ignore that coat. Something going on with that.
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Post by amazingates on Dec 9, 2019 15:27:33 GMT -8
Sandy... the other thing you mentioned is about people getting blamed for murders that are not "theirs". I think that does happen a lot. And I also think there are a lot more zodiac victims.
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sandyb1
New Member
Long time researcher on Zodiac, stalked by man who claims to be Zodiac. Obsessed with each other.
Posts: 22
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Post by sandyb1 on Dec 10, 2019 11:20:41 GMT -8
amazingates, How I found out about the jackets that were made in Billings Montana, was from Graysmiths book Sleeping Lady. I don't remember if there were 5 or 6 made, but remember that only one was made in the color yellow. When I saw RH wearing it, I had no idea about it being worn by one of the Trailside shooters! It was one of the nicest looking jackets I had ever seen. The Yellow was kind of gold/yellow and on the back were two fists holding two beer mugs with the foam flowing over the edge of each glass, great art work. Being an artist myself anything artistic stands out. I pointed out the jacket to one of my co-workers and she thought it was very nice looking as well. RH was not much of a drinker, so we thought it was sort of funny for him to wear a jacket that said Olympic drinking team on it. That was another reason I remember that jacket. I about fell off my chair when I read about that very jacket in Graysmiths book! I wish he wasn't so hard to get in touch with these days. I use to talk to him by phone without a problem. He might know more about the company that made the jackets and for what group they were designed for? Someone had to pay for them and if they were shipped, whose address was the shipping address? You would think that the detective working the case would have checked that out? I hope that RH hasn't found this site, He will get rid of that jacket if it was his and not his buddy who I call Honcho. I was told that there were four in their group. I know that two of them were from Chicago, they were the two who brought the counterfeit printing plates for the ring in Vallejo. One of the RH's is a printer by trade. When I followed the money, he was the only one I was able to find who had plenty of it. One of them has a husky voice, another one has a squeaky high pitched voice when he talks loudly. Something is very wrong with his voice box! He is the one I believe was a room mate to one of my boyfriends at that time, that is the one I call Honcho. He was extremely upset when my boyfriend Don Porter said the name "Dee" in front of me. That was when I heard that squeaky voice. I am not sure which victim it was that said the killer had a squeaky high pitched voice? But I think it was the victim Steven Heartle in Santa Cruz who also described the yellow jacket. I believe that Jim Phillips knew Honcho and that was the man who went with them to the Virgin Islands, who Darlene saw kill someone. If anyone here knows how to get more information about who and why those Montana jackets were made, I could use some help.
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Post by amazingates on Dec 10, 2019 12:06:49 GMT -8
amazingates, How I found out about the jackets that were made in Billings Montana, was from Graysmiths book Sleeping Lady. I don't remember if there were 5 or 6 made, but remember that only one was made in the color yellow. When I saw RH wearing it, I had no idea about it being worn by one of the Trailside shooters! It was one of the nicest looking jackets I had ever seen. The Yellow was kind of gold/yellow and on the back were two fists holding two beer mugs with the foam flowing over the edge of each glass, great art work. Being an artist myself anything artistic stands out. I pointed out the jacket to one of my co-workers and she thought it was very nice looking as well. RH was not much of a drinker, so we thought it was sort of funny for him to wear a jacket that said Olympic drinking team on it. That was another reason I remember that jacket. I about fell off my chair when I read about that very jacket in Graysmiths book! I wish he wasn't so hard to get in touch with these days. I use to talk to him by phone without a problem. He might know more about the company that made the jackets and for what group they were designed for? Someone had to pay for them and if they were shipped, whose address was the shipping address? You would think that the detective working the case would have checked that out? I hope that RH hasn't found this site, He will get rid of that jacket if it was his and not his buddy who I call Honcho. I was told that there were four in their group. I know that two of them were from Chicago, they were the two who brought the counterfeit printing plates for the ring in Vallejo. One of the RH's is a printer by trade. When I followed the money, he was the only one I was able to find who had plenty of it. One of them has a husky voice, another one has a squeaky high pitched voice when he talks loudly. Something is very wrong with his voice box! He is the one I believe was a room mate to one of my boyfriends at that time, that is the one I call Honcho. He was extremely upset when my boyfriend Don Porter said the name "Dee" in front of me. That was when I heard that squeaky voice. I am not sure which victim it was that said the killer had a squeaky high pitched voice? But I think it was the victim Steven Heartle in Santa Cruz who also described the yellow jacket. I believe that Jim Phillips knew Honcho and that was the man who went with them to the Virgin Islands, who Darlene saw kill someone. If anyone here knows how to get more information about who and why those Montana jackets were made, I could use some help. __________________ Sandy, I started another thread to discuss all of this. I want to try to help sort this out and see if your POI group is connected to anyone else who might be involved and try to get this figured out. I started a thread here just for your POI Group. I'm going to copy the info from this thread you posted, over to that thread. Then we can keep everything in one place so it is not lost. The thread I start is here Sandy Betts' POI Group - RH, Honcho & Others theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/416/sandy-betts-poi-group-honcho?page=1&scrollTo=1728
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Post by ophion1031 on Dec 10, 2019 21:20:03 GMT -8
Sandy, you just gave me an idea. Well, it's an idea I had a long time ago but now I see it in a different way. When you said "I have read the book "The Ultimate Evil" by Maury Terry about David Berkowitz, Charles Manson and a Satanic cult that was and still is coast to coast ( NY to Ca.)" ......... What if "TO NY, TO LA" in the 340 cipher is talking about just that, a coast to coast group of Satanists. I suggested "TO NY, TO LA" a long time ago but never really knew what that could mean. It's probably a long shot, but is a possibility.
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Post by ophion1031 on Dec 10, 2019 21:29:18 GMT -8
amazingates, How I found out about the jackets that were made in Billings Montana, was from Graysmiths book Sleeping Lady. I don't remember if there were 5 or 6 made, but remember that only one was made in the color yellow. When I saw RH wearing it, I had no idea about it being worn by one of the Trailside shooters! It was one of the nicest looking jackets I had ever seen. The Yellow was kind of gold/yellow and on the back were two fists holding two beer mugs with the foam flowing over the edge of each glass, great art work. Being an artist myself anything artistic stands out. I pointed out the jacket to one of my co-workers and she thought it was very nice looking as well. RH was not much of a drinker, so we thought it was sort of funny for him to wear a jacket that said Olympic drinking team on it. That was another reason I remember that jacket. I about fell off my chair when I read about that very jacket in Graysmiths book! I wish he wasn't so hard to get in touch with these days. I use to talk to him by phone without a problem. He might know more about the company that made the jackets and for what group they were designed for? Someone had to pay for them and if they were shipped, whose address was the shipping address? You would think that the detective working the case would have checked that out? I hope that RH hasn't found this site, He will get rid of that jacket if it was his and not his buddy who I call Honcho. I was told that there were four in their group. I know that two of them were from Chicago, they were the two who brought the counterfeit printing plates for the ring in Vallejo. One of the RH's is a printer by trade. When I followed the money, he was the only one I was able to find who had plenty of it. One of them has a husky voice, another one has a squeaky high pitched voice when he talks loudly. Something is very wrong with his voice box! He is the one I believe was a room mate to one of my boyfriends at that time, that is the one I call Honcho. He was extremely upset when my boyfriend Don Porter said the name "Dee" in front of me. That was when I heard that squeaky voice. I am not sure which victim it was that said the killer had a squeaky high pitched voice? But I think it was the victim Steven Heartle in Santa Cruz who also described the yellow jacket. I believe that Jim Phillips knew Honcho and that was the man who went with them to the Virgin Islands, who Darlene saw kill someone. If anyone here knows how to get more information about who and why those Montana jackets were made, I could use some help. __________________ Sandy, I started another thread to discuss all of this. I want to try to help sort this out and see if your POI group is connected to anyone else who might be involved and try to get this figured out. I started a thread here just for your POI Group. I'm going to copy the info from this thread you posted, over to that thread. Then we can keep everything in one place so it is not lost. The thread I start is here Sandy Betts' POI Group - RH, Honcho & Others theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/416/sandy-betts-poi-group-honcho?page=1&scrollTo=1728There is a thread already, but it's "hidden" in the secret suspects section. theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/74/sandy-betts-suspect
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Post by ophion1031 on Dec 10, 2019 21:32:53 GMT -8
Edda Kane sounds familiar... But I might be mixing her up with someone else. I do remember finding a newspaper article on another woman murdered in the bay area that had the last name of Kane. I want to say that she lived alone on a military base and was killed in her home, but I will have to refresh my memory. And I'll read up on Edda Kane as well. And there was also this 1971 murder in Napa:
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sandyb1
New Member
Long time researcher on Zodiac, stalked by man who claims to be Zodiac. Obsessed with each other.
Posts: 22
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Post by sandyb1 on Dec 11, 2019 12:20:03 GMT -8
Thanks Ophion, I do know about that victim as well. It just reminded me about the "In the woods lays April" , or something like that? This article shows March 7th she was killed in Feb. Zodiac wrote two letters that March. One was from Pleasanton on the 13th, I think he was headed that day for LA, to read about himself there. Perhaps do some murders there?
Your other post about TO NY ...LA, just made me think about the name "Tony", that is the first name of my Honcho suspect!
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Post by amazingates on Dec 11, 2019 12:58:53 GMT -8
I read where the tried and convicted a woodcutter (african american, not that that makes any difference, but it was a racist time and maybe people wanted him blamed). They had a trial and found him guilty of the murder of Linda Kane, actually spelled Lynda Kane. A LOT of people do not believe he really killed her, but someone else did. There is a lot of info about all this that I was reading last night. I'll try to find some time to get that info on here. Lynda Kane was actually a student at the same Seventh Day Adventist School as Cecelia Shepard, so I was posting about her over on the What Is Going On With The 7th Day Adventist Connections? thread... so might as well just link over there for the info on her theslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&what_at_least_one=lynda&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0&search=Search
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Post by amazingates on Dec 12, 2019 17:01:45 GMT -8
Ophion... your thoughts on the TO NY TO LA... makes sense. It really does... because I really do believe this is a group of some kind. I am really starting to think some of the other sk's we know about are part of this group. I even think BTK is part of this group. I think it is possible several of the Zodiac POIs are also a part of this group. I do think Troy Houghton is a part for sure because the 13 card and the halloween card just have way too much about Troy Houghton for him to not be part of The Zodiac "group". That would also make sense why Sandy's Poi's are involved also. It is the only thing that makes sense why there are so many Poi's that have so many things that make them look like Zodiac. My guess they do stretch from LA to NY, and going back and forth and some live in cali and some in NY and who knows where else. This makes a lot of sense. This makes sense why there is different handwriting, different mo's, different composites and descriptions from witnesses, etc. BTK told me about the Dirty Dozen. he talks about "the family"(even had asked me once if I was "family") and he did not mean blood relative. I think the reason he asked me that is because I knew the code. anyway enough of him... but the whole group thing with many people in the group, a code they all know, and they are all across the usa. It makes sense. Also being that COINTELPRO is most likely involved, and there is a Michigan tie to all these people, it makes sense. and how many of these people were in the Military, and how many of them were in the same kind of training, or stationed somewhere at the same places? we need to try to find out. How many were recruited into COINTELPRO? How many of them got mad and went rogue and took off, or pretended they died when they really didn't, as is the case of Troy Houghton. He was thought to be dead, but was he. If these clues are right in the Zodiac communications, then Troy Houghton is not dead, he was alive and well and telling "someone" so in some of these zodiac communications. There are way too many Troy Houghton clues in the z communications for it not to be talking about him. But he is definitely not the only one in this group, and he is definitely sending out clues to someone else in the group, because if someone does not know the code, his communications are worthless, so why write them. I don't think for one minute these communications were written to taunt the police, they were written to someone who understands that code. And who is writing back in the news ads? especially in the one that refers to the Imperial Wizard and your partner is in Deep Real Estate. and that one is signed none other than RA, which "can be" decoded as RAIDER... a special group of the miltary, and is RA . ID . ER, and that is how this code works. and who is the imperial wizard, well it might be KKK, but who the heck is going to write that out... see the thread at bottom of this post ....... for more on that.... but it can also be Mariann Wizard(see threads at bottom of this post), who was really promoting anti-war because of the way soldiers were treated. she was also working at the legal aide there in seaside, monterey, right be Carmel CA ... where the Sandy beaches card is on that Celebrity cipher is. We have lots and lots of ties to santa cruz and fort ord through this and then we have the Presidio 27 or which were the Mutiny 14. This was HUGE, and I'm now wonder if the 14 is not really white supremacist which I thought is was, because of all the other white supremacists clues in the Halloween card, but may Zodiac's 14, has to do with the MUTINY 14? I just started wondering that a few days ago, when trying to see where my friend was who was involved in the fort ord guns and drugs stuff. I found him in the Mutiny 14, so I really started reading up on that. also wizard is a term for a military psyche and Mariann Wizard was setting up and promoting counseling for all the vets, and the soldiers on the bases. it was not just there in fort ord, it was everywhere in the usa and even over in viet nam. it was huge. I also got to think when Zodiac was saying to wear some of HIS buttons instead of those other buttons everyone was wearing. well I was on the newspaper for the Gi's that was being sent out by this huge group for the vets and gi's, and on one of the pages were buttons being sold by the Ally Press, another anti-gov, anti-war press out of berkely and here are their buttons. were these the buttons Zodiac was wanting worn? or did he know his group was wearing them and he was cluing them in who he is. here are the buttons .... I'm getting off topic, this needs to go into the Zodiac section... but it also involves Berkowitz and they might both be in the same "group". Mariann Wizard - Turn Guns Around - Notes On Gi Movementtheslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/405/mariann-wizard-turn-notes-movementTearing Apart Personal Ad - Deep Real Estate Imperial Wizardtheslaughterhouse.freeforums.net/thread/389/tearing-personal-estate-imperial-wizard
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Post by ophion1031 on Sept 8, 2020 23:13:15 GMT -8
Sorry, I completely got this thread off topic. Getting back to Berkowitz, the Carr bros, and anyone else that were involved in the Son of Sam killings.....
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