Post by ophion1031 on Dec 10, 2019 23:48:36 GMT -8
In this thread we can discuss POIs that were "high society" types in San Francisco.
Starting with the Livermore family.....
Ok, where to start? I ran across the name of George Livermore, an architect from a very prominent S.F. family, while doing some work on William E. Thoresen III. Thoresen had hired Livermore to re-model his mansion and then stiffed him on the bill. You can read about all of that in the Thoresen section of the forum. I did some research on Livermore and his family, and they were fascinating people to say the least. I have been chatting with a poster going by the name of Soze over at Morf's site and he/she (sorry, Soze, I don't know which you are yet!) is pretty interested in the Livermore family and a possible tie to the Zodiac case. I did find some interesting things I figured were coincidental, but Soze's interest in the Livermore family has me curious... so here is the Livermore thread!!
You're probably wondering why this is in the 'secret suspect' section... well, these were very rich and powerful people who have living relatives. If I remember correct, I think one of the Livermore brothers has a son who is a big shot judge in California. So, for the record, I have to state that nobody is being accused of any wrong-doing or anything... this thread is to simply explore a possibility.
Norman and Caroline Livermore lived at 1045 Vallejo St in San Francisco. The house is amazing!
Norman Banks "Ike" Livermore, Jr.
DOB: March 27, 1911 San Francisco, CA
DIED: December 5, 2006 Novato, CA
PARENTS: Norman Banks Livermore and Caroline Sealy Livermore
SIBLINGS: John Livermore, Putnam Livermore, Robert Livermore and George Livermore
SPOUSE(s): Virginia (Pennoyer) Livermore (they married in 1943)
CHILDREN: Edith Livermore, Pauline (Livermore) Jeffers, Norman Livermore III, Samuel Livermore and David Livermore
MILITARY: United States Navy
KNOWN ADDRESSES:
San Francisco, CA
Sierra, NV
San Rafael, CA
-Was an American environmentalist, lumber industry executive, and state official. He was the only member of California governor Ronald Reagan's cabinet to serve during the full eight years of his administration.
-1933 graduete of Stanford University receiving a bachelor's degree in Social Science/Social Thought. He was captain of the Stanford baseball team and later played in the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin.
-Was in his late 50's during the Zodiac killings. Too old to be Z? Maybe. But, the Livermore's were known to be health nuts so he may have looked younger than he actually was.
-In his late teens he was a park ranger at Sequoia National Park.
-Joined the Sierra Club in the 1930's. He was on the board of directors of the Sierra Club from 1941 to 1949. He came up with the concept for the first of the club's Biennial Wilderness Conferences, which was held on April 8–9, 1949. These conferences continued for more than 20 years. In 1979, Livermore received the Sierra Club's Walter A. Starr Award for service to the club by a former director.
-He served as treasurer for the Pacific Lumber Company from 1952 to 1967, when it was committed to sustainable yields, in the years long before the company was acquired by Maxxam, Inc. and went bankrupt.
-Livermore served on the boards of many organizations, including the National Audubon Society, the Save-the-Redwoods League, the Thacher School, the Sierra Club, The Peregrine Fund and the Stanford Business School Advisory Council. He served as treasurer of the Commonwealth Club. He chaired the Bureau of Land Management Wild Horse and Burro Commission. He was a longtime member of the California Fish and Game Commission, and served as its president from 1982 to 1983. While on that body, he worked on recovery of the California condor population.
-Owned a sawmill on the family ranch, Montesol, which straddles Napa, Lake and Sonoma counties, and a kiln in Cloverdale, where he made patio furniture and other products.
Livermore was descended from a pioneer California family with roots in Maine. An ancestor, Elijah Livermore, built a grist mill and a saw mill on the Androscoggin River in 1791. The town of Livermore Falls, Maine, is named after that ancestor. He served as Grand Marshal of the Bishop Mule Days.
Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Livermore
Obituary: www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Ike-Livermore-environmentalist-from-Gold-2543823.php
***I'm pretty sure Livermore was living in Nevada at the time of the Zodiac crimes, but not 100% sure. Does it matter? Maybe not... I think. I guess Zodiac didn't have to LIVE in the bay area. Livermore grew up there and knew the area well. I'm not saying that means anything, but not living in the bay area at the time shouldn't rule him out unless it can be proven that he was out of the area on certain Zodiac dates.
Here are all of the Livermores listed in the 1969-1970 SF directory...
I think Norman Jr. lived in Nevada at the time. I will see if I can find out where John was living then. Horacio Livermore is listed. I just did a quick search for Horacio and found that he is buried at Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland. I have a thread on that cemetery, but I don't recall why at the moment. Wait a minute, there are two Horacio Livermores buried there...
Horatio Gates Livermore (1805 – 1879)
Horatio Putnam Livermore (1837 – 1916)
Caroline Sealy Livermore is also buried at Mountain View. But if the two Horacio Livermores that I just listed were both dead by 1969, who is the Horacio Livermore in the directory? I'm guessing there is a Horacio Livermore III who would likely be the brother of Norman Livermore Sr., making him (obviously) the uncle of John, Norman Jr., Putnam, Robert and George.
In the directory you will notice that George Livermore is listed at 41 Palm Ave Apt. 2 in San Fran. I looked that up a year ago and I think it was a mile or two south of Washington & Cherry. The interesting thing is that George lived AT the corner of Washington & Cherry (not RIGHT on the corner, but close enough) in 1966 or 1967. I'm not sure how long he lived there or when he moved. George Livermore & Associates (his architectural firm) was listed at 251 Kearny St Room 405 in San Fran. Shit, there are two George Livermore's I just noticed. I can't remember if he had a son named George Jr., but he must have. Or maybe an uncle named George? I will clear all this up at some point. Anyways, the address I already listed was 41 Palm Ave Apt. 2 and the other George (unless the same George had two addresses??) is listed at 3153 Pacific Ave. This has to be his actual address. I was wondering why a rich architect would live in an apartment. The Pacific Ave address is a good size house, nearly 5,000 sq. feet. AND, this house is just 2 blocks from the Thoresen mansion!!! I can't believe I overlooked this address before. It is just one block from the home of Xenophon Anthony.
You will notice Putnam Livermore's occupation says "Chickering & Gregory." That is a law firm. One of the other partners, Sherman Chickering (1911-1993), lived about a block and a half from the corner of Washington & Cherry.....
Starting with the Livermore family.....
Ok, where to start? I ran across the name of George Livermore, an architect from a very prominent S.F. family, while doing some work on William E. Thoresen III. Thoresen had hired Livermore to re-model his mansion and then stiffed him on the bill. You can read about all of that in the Thoresen section of the forum. I did some research on Livermore and his family, and they were fascinating people to say the least. I have been chatting with a poster going by the name of Soze over at Morf's site and he/she (sorry, Soze, I don't know which you are yet!) is pretty interested in the Livermore family and a possible tie to the Zodiac case. I did find some interesting things I figured were coincidental, but Soze's interest in the Livermore family has me curious... so here is the Livermore thread!!
You're probably wondering why this is in the 'secret suspect' section... well, these were very rich and powerful people who have living relatives. If I remember correct, I think one of the Livermore brothers has a son who is a big shot judge in California. So, for the record, I have to state that nobody is being accused of any wrong-doing or anything... this thread is to simply explore a possibility.
Norman and Caroline Livermore lived at 1045 Vallejo St in San Francisco. The house is amazing!
Norman Banks "Ike" Livermore, Jr.
DOB: March 27, 1911 San Francisco, CA
DIED: December 5, 2006 Novato, CA
PARENTS: Norman Banks Livermore and Caroline Sealy Livermore
SIBLINGS: John Livermore, Putnam Livermore, Robert Livermore and George Livermore
SPOUSE(s): Virginia (Pennoyer) Livermore (they married in 1943)
CHILDREN: Edith Livermore, Pauline (Livermore) Jeffers, Norman Livermore III, Samuel Livermore and David Livermore
MILITARY: United States Navy
KNOWN ADDRESSES:
San Francisco, CA
Sierra, NV
San Rafael, CA
-Was an American environmentalist, lumber industry executive, and state official. He was the only member of California governor Ronald Reagan's cabinet to serve during the full eight years of his administration.
-1933 graduete of Stanford University receiving a bachelor's degree in Social Science/Social Thought. He was captain of the Stanford baseball team and later played in the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin.
-Was in his late 50's during the Zodiac killings. Too old to be Z? Maybe. But, the Livermore's were known to be health nuts so he may have looked younger than he actually was.
-In his late teens he was a park ranger at Sequoia National Park.
-Joined the Sierra Club in the 1930's. He was on the board of directors of the Sierra Club from 1941 to 1949. He came up with the concept for the first of the club's Biennial Wilderness Conferences, which was held on April 8–9, 1949. These conferences continued for more than 20 years. In 1979, Livermore received the Sierra Club's Walter A. Starr Award for service to the club by a former director.
-He served as treasurer for the Pacific Lumber Company from 1952 to 1967, when it was committed to sustainable yields, in the years long before the company was acquired by Maxxam, Inc. and went bankrupt.
-Livermore served on the boards of many organizations, including the National Audubon Society, the Save-the-Redwoods League, the Thacher School, the Sierra Club, The Peregrine Fund and the Stanford Business School Advisory Council. He served as treasurer of the Commonwealth Club. He chaired the Bureau of Land Management Wild Horse and Burro Commission. He was a longtime member of the California Fish and Game Commission, and served as its president from 1982 to 1983. While on that body, he worked on recovery of the California condor population.
-Owned a sawmill on the family ranch, Montesol, which straddles Napa, Lake and Sonoma counties, and a kiln in Cloverdale, where he made patio furniture and other products.
Livermore was descended from a pioneer California family with roots in Maine. An ancestor, Elijah Livermore, built a grist mill and a saw mill on the Androscoggin River in 1791. The town of Livermore Falls, Maine, is named after that ancestor. He served as Grand Marshal of the Bishop Mule Days.
Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Livermore
Obituary: www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Ike-Livermore-environmentalist-from-Gold-2543823.php
***I'm pretty sure Livermore was living in Nevada at the time of the Zodiac crimes, but not 100% sure. Does it matter? Maybe not... I think. I guess Zodiac didn't have to LIVE in the bay area. Livermore grew up there and knew the area well. I'm not saying that means anything, but not living in the bay area at the time shouldn't rule him out unless it can be proven that he was out of the area on certain Zodiac dates.
Here are all of the Livermores listed in the 1969-1970 SF directory...
I think Norman Jr. lived in Nevada at the time. I will see if I can find out where John was living then. Horacio Livermore is listed. I just did a quick search for Horacio and found that he is buried at Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland. I have a thread on that cemetery, but I don't recall why at the moment. Wait a minute, there are two Horacio Livermores buried there...
Horatio Gates Livermore (1805 – 1879)
Horatio Putnam Livermore (1837 – 1916)
Caroline Sealy Livermore is also buried at Mountain View. But if the two Horacio Livermores that I just listed were both dead by 1969, who is the Horacio Livermore in the directory? I'm guessing there is a Horacio Livermore III who would likely be the brother of Norman Livermore Sr., making him (obviously) the uncle of John, Norman Jr., Putnam, Robert and George.
In the directory you will notice that George Livermore is listed at 41 Palm Ave Apt. 2 in San Fran. I looked that up a year ago and I think it was a mile or two south of Washington & Cherry. The interesting thing is that George lived AT the corner of Washington & Cherry (not RIGHT on the corner, but close enough) in 1966 or 1967. I'm not sure how long he lived there or when he moved. George Livermore & Associates (his architectural firm) was listed at 251 Kearny St Room 405 in San Fran. Shit, there are two George Livermore's I just noticed. I can't remember if he had a son named George Jr., but he must have. Or maybe an uncle named George? I will clear all this up at some point. Anyways, the address I already listed was 41 Palm Ave Apt. 2 and the other George (unless the same George had two addresses??) is listed at 3153 Pacific Ave. This has to be his actual address. I was wondering why a rich architect would live in an apartment. The Pacific Ave address is a good size house, nearly 5,000 sq. feet. AND, this house is just 2 blocks from the Thoresen mansion!!! I can't believe I overlooked this address before. It is just one block from the home of Xenophon Anthony.
You will notice Putnam Livermore's occupation says "Chickering & Gregory." That is a law firm. One of the other partners, Sherman Chickering (1911-1993), lived about a block and a half from the corner of Washington & Cherry.....